Joerg Schmitz 0:08
Welcome to The Inclusive Leader Podcast. The practice of inclusive leadership enables us to tackle the complex challenges of our times. This is the space for conversations about inclusive leadership. I am your host, Dr. Schmitz, and I welcome you to this episode. There are very few people I know who embody the integration of sharply distinct, perhaps even opposing qualities. When the hershberg is one of them, both artist, a sculptor to be specific and a business professional, she brings together two very different worlds and value systems, I have watched her move between those worlds seamlessly. And by applying her artistic sensibilities to her work, and vice versa. She adds depth and value to both, we can all learn a lot from the ease with which she integrates disparate parts. Here is my conversation with Wendy. So Wendy, what do you do?
Wendy Hirschberg 1:12
Well, I have to answer as a double answer. So I know you through my work in diversity. And I actually did the math, I've been doing work in diversity for over 40 years. Oh, and second dancer is that I have a master's in sculpture. But I actually started making sculpture when I was three. So that math ended up to 63 years. So I what I concluded is that once I commit to something I really jump in and stick with it. I guess that was my conclusion there. But But what a cool, I mean, what cool two sides, right? I mean, sculpture and artistic pursuit. And then DNI which, I guess, to some degree, and sometimes also qualifies as an artistic pursuit.
Joerg Schmitz 2:06
But maybe many DNI, people don't perceive it that way. And you have some history to look back on. So how, you know, I mean, I'm just wondering, first of all, I mean, it's, it's fascinating. And I've always told you that I guess it's fascinating to find someone who has these two sides to them. And I know that you've done the and I work in a rather serious conservative, you know, organizational environment as well. And, and I'm just wondering how, I don't even know how to get into this. But how did you combine both? Or did you need to separate those two sides? What do they have in common?
Wendy Hirschberg 2:50
Yeah, I can, I can definitely say I spent some time thinking about it. And actually, thanks to knowing you, I spent more time thinking about why I ended up in diversity work than I had, you know, for many years. So I've known you for a long time. But it took me a long time to sort of say, How did this happen, that I ended up this career. So I think I focus, you know, maybe more on the commonalities and thinking about doing this. Because to me, that was the harder part on the on the surface, you know, I worked often three days a week, long hours, you know, and two days in my studio three days in the work environment, and, you know, the superficial thing is, I had to remember what day it was to figure out whether I was, you know, going to be wearing my jeans or a suit, you know, especially in the beginning, I was like, Okay, I gotta get used to this wardrobe change. But over time, you know, and, and certainly years into doing this work, I did start to see that there was a connection. And what was the connection from my perspective is that as an artist for most of my life, making sculpture, I used collage technique, so three dimensional, but sort of putting together disparate materials, right. And they had to stand up, you know, that defy gravity that has hang together, so that they have some sort of integration, you know, of their spirit parts. I also, you know, clearly as an artist was trying to express an idea through a visual language as a diversity inclusion professional, especially given my educational background being heavily on the art side. I kind of realized over time that I was really like, more like you honestly, in some ways, in that I felt like I was getting an honorary degree in cultural anthropology. Because what I was trying to do was listen to people carefully enough to undress. Stand both what the experiences people were having in work environments that I was exposed to. And then what was actually going on within the business itself. Because to me, it was really critical to understand, actually the business model that I was working within so that I could determine what might be causing the inequities and the exclusionary practices. Because a lot of times, you know, what's written down, or what you can see on the surface isn't actually what's really experienced by the people working there. Right? Yeah. So I essentially was collecting information from many sources, and collaging it together, sort of when I realized it really wasn't totally different, even though I wore different clothes. So that was the thing I sort of landed on.
Joerg Schmitz 5:53
I mean, I wonder sometime, and I mean, ever since you shared that with me in in, you know, I've been wondering, and we've had a number of conversations about what is the benefit of an artistic sensibilities bility in doing the ENI work, and I mean, also watching your work, I've always had a feeling that you it was the same sensibility? You know, because I mean, so much of, I mean, an organization is a structure as well, right? It's of sorts, it's a, it is just a different form of the structure and, and the integration of disparate parts could be also a definition of inclusiveness. Right? Exactly.
Wendy Hirschberg 6:33
I think, for me, what probably took me a little bit of time, was, you know, really understanding the business practices, you know, and I think more naturally, I was, I was always interested in people's experiences. And that part, you know, was, I could talk a little bit about, you know, why did people trust me? You know, I've thought about, like, why did these people trust me, you know, especially as a white woman, you know, I don't know, I just found it really interesting that I was able to establish trust, even when I was working just with mostly white men on gender issues. The men were trusting me with their stories. So I did pause and think like, Why are these people trusting me with this? So that took me some time to think through, but on the more challenging side for me was, you know, I had to be kind of objective and looking at the business, you know, because I didn't, it's not like I came in with an MBA and could say, Okay, I understand this kind of business runs like this, this and this, I basically was like, totally naive, honestly, in the very beginning. And I was like, Okay, let me just figure this place out. So I kind of pieced it together really, with a lot of intuition and listening and observation. But it, it turned out to me to really position me well to be an influencer, because I'm not a stupid person, I got like, kinda to the core of some of the really bizarre aspects of the business. And there are contradictions. And a lot of companies think they're running the business in this extremely logical fashion. But, you know, you can find these moments where they're, like, completely blind to something, you know, I'll give you an example. So in the organization where I spend a lot of time, there were no expectations that individuals will learn how to sell work. But the system that was provided to the individuals was one where time was money, he was a billable hours environment. So if you weren't going to get credit, for selling the work, you had to actually kind of learn that you had to break certain rules about how you're spending your time to be successful. So for the people who were not going to get tipped off to that little secret and unwritten aspect, it was really difficult to figure out how to become successful. And partly because oftentimes, people who don't get tipped off to what's really going on, have differences of identity to the inside or groups now using your language, then it becomes this appearance of conscious bias, let's say in the system now, where really often it's this unconscious pattern that's just invisible to a lot of leaders. And yeah, so it's things I think the fact that I was very intuitive person as an artist was an asset because I didn't have like preconceived ideas about business. And I also candidly would say, maybe I was brought up to be a bit less respectful of authority figures than money people are so so you know, it the fact that I would be sure I had sort of a an opinion about the business. I didn't feel embarrassed to say or shy to say to An executive explained this, why does this make any sense, you know, if people are expected to sell, and you're not helping them understand that that's going to take time, like what you know, like, I would basically tell the story back to them. And I would challenge them. And I would make jokes about the fact that, you know, I thought they were kind of in trouble if this person with my background could figure this out, you know, so I stayed with the business people on the business side. And partly, I did that, because I actually think a lot of people are attracted to business, especially in the years that I've been in this field, you know, are attracted, because they want to make money, they want to have status, they want to advance, they want, you know, certain kind of influence, or whatever, things that actually honestly as an artist don't really attract me all that much. But I had to develop an acceptance of, you know, this is really what makes these folks tick. And I have respect for them. Because in many cases, they are like all of them, including the executives were really pretty much self made successes. You know, I developed a value for what they valued and was able to just say, you know, they didn't come to work to actually have their values challenged by somebody like me, that wasn't their motivation. If I didn't learn how to speak their language, why should I expect them to care? About mine? Yeah. So I think those were, those were things that I learned kind of slowly. But I think in the later part of my career, I felt really confident that I was, you know, really being a contributor there. What you're
Joerg Schmitz 11:38
also saying, I mean, not in those words, you know, but that you first of all, you were in an non threatening outside or on the inside, right, if your motivational profile, you were not trying to compete, and maybe that you didn't come in with an MBA was an asset, right? We alerted you to things that an MBA may not know this, actually. And you weren't necessarily blinded by the same motivations that you were seen as if read necessarily. Plus, I think sometimes people love explaining their world to other people. And when you're not, and especially when somebody isn't threatening,
Wendy Hirschberg 12:18
right, I do agree. I mean, I did think that was, you know, one, I don't have a loud voice, even, you know, so I think that helped me, especially when my name would appear in the beginning on all these gender related, you know, semi threatening messages they were getting, my name was on all of them. So they, you know, I had always gone to these meetings, these one on ones thinking, like, Oh, God, this guy has gotten like, all these messages, where my name is plastered all over, he's never gonna want to tell me stuff. But in a very short order, they wouldn't you know, so you're right. I think I really wasn't a threatening presence.
Joerg Schmitz 12:52
Yeah. I mean, since since you laid out these two sides to you, right? The art and the DNI side, in a corporate kind of business context, maybe we need to have like, go down one strand, come back and go down the other strand a little bit. But I'm just curious, when you look back at the DNI journey, and evolution, what is the most impactful or important insight from doing the work?
Wendy Hirschberg 13:19
Well, I think actually, it's what I'm what I've been talking about. Honestly, I think that I do think that people in the field sometimes are a little bit tempted to proselytize in a sense to sort of have, you know, probably values that are completely matched to mostly what I believe personally. But I think that in order to really be impactful, you have to go beyond that, because what I was saying, it's not a, it's not a typical motivation to join, you know, an organization with, you know, that's really about successful financial results, you know, it just, it's not, you know, I used to joke around in my career saying, you know, many of the people I work with chose math over English many years ago, they don't, a lot of words. Numbers, like numbers were like music to their ears, you know, and words were kinda like dissonant sounds, you know. So, I think, I think it's, it's that, you know, kind of a kind of respect for differences. Even in that regard, like I was, I was a very different person to your point in this environment that I spent a lot of time in. And in your since I'm often very different than the companies I've advised or even when I was working in that organization, I work I did, I was given as a free resource that tons of other companies, so I would always try to demonstrate a certain kind of respect for who I was talking to, as opposed to, you know, maybe thinking like a teacher is sort of how I put it. I think that it's really critical to you know, not just assume good intentions necessarily, but really listen carefully to what matters to the person you're talking to. Yeah, you know, you have to connect on some level to begin with about something that really does matter to them initially, and then, you know, you become an influencer, if you understand where they're coming from,
Joerg Schmitz 15:19
I think it's so important. And I think, or I observe that oftentimes, that's where the initial turnoff comes, you know, one of the things that I used to notice when go working with with new organizations is like, the conversations about who gets it, you know, these PRN over here, this person doesn't get it. And, but as soon as you fall trap to this kind of thinking, who gets it and who doesn't, you're actually kind of othering those that don't get it, right. And you're treating them differently, because mentally you've tagged them. And there is an air of superiority that that doesn't connect.
Wendy Hirschberg 15:58
Now, I actually have coached people along those, I mean, very senior, top level executive on that exact topic. Don't say that to you know, like, if you have sometimes you'll see male executives who really embrace this stuff, take that attitude on and humiliate other men who are somewhere along the journey. And that's like a disaster. You know?
Joerg Schmitz 16:24
Welcome to masculinity. 101.
Wendy Hirschberg 16:30
There you go. Yeah, that was actually probably another thing I learned more about is how incredibly, you know, actively inclined to sort of insult each other some of the male executives were from, you know, in front of hundreds of people even said, that was an astounding learning, I think growing up with maybe a female dominated household made me a little naive about that.
Joerg Schmitz 16:57
It's interesting how these backgrounds come back. So I mean, you know, I know that we could probably spend hours just talking about D and I, and what that takes, but I'd love to come back and focus on the art side for a moment, right? Just like, when you think what is from that artistic sensibility? What, what was more most important for you, actually, and I guess, I'm always curious how, how one in your career, if I'm imagining you in that fictitious week, you know, some days in a suit, and other you know, dressed up and other days in jeans in your studio? How did one world influenced the other? Or did you? Did you build kind of a wall there? Ah,
Wendy Hirschberg 17:43
initially, I would say, some of my motivation was to be in a work environment that wasn't pretending it wasn't a marketplace, like, at the time I joined, you know, in in a more corporate environment, because I started in the nonprofit sector, in a women's organization catalyst for many years, and then being in a corporate setting. At first, I was actually thinking that it might help me be more successful as an artist, honestly, because I thought, I've gone to this company setting where I have a certain amount of concern and insight, but I don't feel like my ego is like, on the line in the way I did feel at that time as an artist. So I'll develop these skills there that I can hopefully cross back over and make me feel more comfortable in the art world, which was becoming more and more obviously, a marketplace.
Joerg Schmitz 18:44
That's an interesting, you know, initial
Wendy Hirschberg 18:46
take, I would say, you know, as an artist, I kind of prefer to be really free to do whatever I wanted to do. And that, you know, was helpful to me to separate my earning a living from being an artist. So I think that was kind of purposeful, also like, Okay, if I don't have to really, you know, have constraints on this part of my life, I'll just be happy as I can be. You know, because that was, you know, as an artist, I wanted to just be totally, you know, just free to do what I want to.
Joerg Schmitz 19:23
So in other words, the corporate job or the nonprofit job before that helped you protect your sandbox from, you know, from from being encroached upon from the need to sustain it. Exactly.
Wendy Hirschberg 19:39
I think that was part of it. I mean, I guess as a, as a young person, growing up with a kind of unusual combination of parents. My mother was an artist, you know, when I came home from school, and, you know, as a little kid, my mother smelled of turpentine which I I sort of thought was, that's mom's perfume, you know, when she was painting, you know, and my dad was while he was an electrical engineer, and working in actually space in defense plans, which I was kind of not so happy with for certain years. On the other hand, my dad was like, the romantic, you know, he married my mother against the wishes of his family. She was from a poor family and bohemian, and they were not, like, too excited about a lot of things. Well, my mom, and my father thought she was phenomenal, you know, and this artist, and so he was the romantic. But my point is, I was somewhat destined to have a kind of split personality, maybe, you know, because of these two genetic inheritances, you know, and, and maybe the way they mix together was pretty unusual.
Joerg Schmitz 20:50
So you are the integration of disparate parts?
Wendy Hirschberg 20:55
I know, I think that sometimes I do. I do, I actually do think a lot of people are influenced by things that are not spoken, you know, this, this is what I was discovering, as, you know, maybe you and I were in Europe with some of the founders of this field that at certain points, and I remember being challenged, you know, in these meetings to think about, like, how did you know how did you end up in this, kind of with this mindset. And I did actually think back, you know, my mom had very diverse friends when I was a kid, you know, her social circle, or like, maybe white artists that, you know, maybe from New York City, or from wherever we were living. And yet, she also had, you know, a lot of friends from Europe. And she, when I was really young, she was very close to people she had been very involved with as a younger person who were mostly African American and Caribbean American. And, you know, all this different, like, kind of, you know, like I had, I remember growing up, I had special moments where, like her friend, she had one friend who was a white woman who's Belgian, who was married to one of the black composers in her or other circle, and she would come to visit and stay over and we get to, like, decorate her room before she'd stay over and all these different, you know, I think like Riri Gris, it was like a famous black opera singer at the time stayed at my house, like these different adventures that, you know, I didn't really think of them much when I was a kid, except it was exciting that we're going to have company thing over. But I think as an as I got older, he also my mother had my sister and I going to this camp, when we were like 1213, at least I was, where there were like Black Panthers, who are counselors, there was a woman that I idolized was a Cuban, activist, political way left leaning camp with very different people, I grew up, you know, in a suburb that was kind of white Jewish dominated. So my mother was like, not speaking up about all her values, but she was making sure that my sister and I were having like, a different experience than we would have if she wasn't in the mix. You know, and I definitely think that influenced me, you know, in terms of the trust level that, you know, I was describing before, like, you know, people really did feel like they could trust me, I think it was because I just didn't grow up, I think in a very homogeneous, you know, frame.
Joerg Schmitz 23:27
Yeah. Which is, I mean, I'm just fascinated by those two worlds and their integration. That's why, you know, I'm just curious, when you think about the corporate world and the corporate leaders, I mean, sometimes, I mean, because I spend a lot of time in those environments, too. And it's like you that's not my inclination, or my motivation inherently right. But I wonder sometimes how business leaders could benefit from an artistic sensibility,
Wendy Hirschberg 23:59
I think that some of the opportunity there is to, you know, it's tricky, because I think it has to do with how you reflect on your own experience, in part, you know, like, I do think a lot of business leaders have never really had the time to be self reflective, you know, in the same way, honestly, that I didn't figure out, like, how do I end up in diversity ties, probably my 50s. And I've been doing it for a long time. So I think people in you know, don't tend to pause, at least in the US context, you know, and think through, you know, how do they end up here? So, I think it can be helpful to think about maybe their personal journey with them as a starting off place, you know, because they'll find the blind spots in their own personal journey. And if you're trying to look at an organization, it's been amazing to me working with lots of different industries to see how How many sort of family like dynamics are in the mix in, in the top of lot of companies, you know, meaning there's everybody brings, you know, I saw this with my father too, and his company, you know, like, people bring their history in the door, it doesn't stay outside, you know. So I think if you start to, like, get to know the person, you can help them learn how to make maybe different kinds of observations and use their intuition and trust their gut. And, you know, sometimes it is hard in a hierarchy. You know, one of the things that I remember from my years at catalysts that interviewed a lot of CEOs in those years, and for the Catalyst Award, and in those discussions across almost all the industries, and they were very different industries, the chairman would always express at some point, their sense of isolation, because people weren't telling them the truth. And they're, you know, they were, the hierarchy was getting in the way. And I think, understanding that people in executive roles are actually pretty isolated from the truth and helping them sort of get past that is also one of the things that maybe as an artist where you don't, you're not affected, or I wasn't affected by the heart hierarchy in the same way, you know, trouble at times. You know, not everybody wants you to tell the truth. And, you know,
Joerg Schmitz 26:25
so that's true, but
Wendy Hirschberg 26:29
factor, you know, but luckily, I think I had established enough credibility, you know, because I understood the business, frankly, you know, I had established enough credibility to get away with some of the riskier things that I had to say, let's put it that way. Well, and
Joerg Schmitz 26:46
it's, maybe it's that mix of also respecting, and valuing them that allows you then to send some messages or give some feedback that is not that great, or people don't want to hear. Because if you're not appearing as a threat, where it's malicious, then people can perceive it differently, too.
Wendy Hirschberg 27:06
Right. And I think your point earlier about what was I? What was my motivation going to be right? Like, I wasn't threatening as a person, but I also wasn't like, why else would I be doing this? If I didn't actually care? Right? It was, you know, like, that was always kind of interesting. Like, when I did feel like I was at risk, I would just say, like, why would this executive think, you know, I'm doing this, you know, there's just like, I wasn't like, trying to get anywhere. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't up or whatever. You know, so, I think that actually was valuable. Dimension, you know, as, you know, like that insider, outsider dynamic that you're describing? Yeah, I just, and I think it helps leaders to allow themselves, you know, to think maybe with you, and go down a different path with you than they would normally like, to your point, like, I'm sure that, you know, I was probably the least linear person in most situations. You know, so and sometimes that was really difficult, you know, I'm not gonna say it wasn't because it is sure drain on people who, especially if your comfort zone is this, maybe sometimes imaginary, logical, linear, you know, universe, I mean, business leaders who are really talented, I think they figure it out. That's more like, not really what's going on a lot of times. But, you know, I think the impulse for certain industries is, you know, I want to make sense of the world. I want everything nailed down, I want to know that, you know, this is what's gonna happen next life is just not like that, you know, and I think, I think some people really can learn from people who don't view life like that.
Joerg Schmitz 28:54
What I'm really intrigued is also the, you know, the ability to reflect that you mentioned, right, I mean, as an artist, that's so much of the process, the artistic process, and oftentimes, business leaders are not in the habit of reflecting. And I mean, the more I study about reflection, the more I'm intrigued, and there is even some theory out there that says reflection is critical to change, right? Whether it's at the societal level or organizational personal level. And so in a way, I mean, I can see what you're doing with our to be a real opening to a critical and increasingly important aspect, right? In business even, you know, when you think about AI coming in now, and people actually begin to develop different skill sets. I oftentimes think about, you know, isn't that somehow on the artistic side? That
Wendy Hirschberg 29:51
makes sense to me. I mean, I do think people like to talk about themselves to me that's like a safe way in because if you if you enjoy To use the idea of self reflection to in a lot of business contexts, people just like they think you're going off, you know, the deep end. I don't think they take that that concept seriously, initially anyway. But if you ask the person to tell you, you know about themselves, they are immediately in a reflective mode, like, I remember doing with you, you know, this journey where you're like tracing your life. I mean, once you get people into something personal, they actually often enjoy that, you know, I think that that's a door into the reflection, you know, as a concept, it can be pretty hairy for people in business. That's true. Right, but I think AI is probably something, you know, to some extent using the, whatever change represents, like a sort of anxiety could actually be helpful to right, if you have anxiety about AI, and what's potentially ahead, maybe you get different kinds of listening, right, like so I think it is a good idea to think about what is what's threatening to this individual from a business perspective? And how might you leverage that to stretch into a different way of thinking,
Joerg Schmitz 31:14
have you used art overtly, in in the ENI context,
Wendy Hirschberg 31:20
I worked with, during COVID, you know, pandemic time I made puppets that were diverse characters. So all different skin tones and different identities, in my effort to make somewhat of a link between my two spirit worlds, and I, I did do voices for my puppets using insights that people had shared with me. I did work with one client. It was a working parents effort. And I talked through through the puppets talking to them about, you know, their, their, their focus at that point was black lives matter related and how to communicate with young children. And I was using the puppets and the little videos in that context, but it wasn't something I did a lot of No.
Joerg Schmitz 32:13
But I think that's fascinating. And I have always wondered about, you know, how art can be used better. I mean, you know, for learning for engaging people around this reflective mission, which is, at the core of DNI work, I mean, not the only thing, but at the core, reflecting about the social structure, we are part of reflecting about these organizational norms. And I like that you differentiated that from unconscious bias, because I think there is a whole area beyond bias that, you know, we leave out of consideration oftentimes in DNI but that almost took to ignite that that reflective impulse through art, or a creative way of using RF perhaps could be a gateway into open up something. The D and E and AI world. Yeah,
Wendy Hirschberg 33:08
I mean, I also think one thing that, I think related to bias is that I think there are times when we focus on bias, and almost like in that accusatory fashion, you were kind of describing earlier. Yeah, you know what I feel like maybe this was a very important piece of what I learned, a lot of times, what happens in companies is that very early on in experiences, there's a lack of skill on the part of supervisors in bringing diversity into the organization in the first place. And what I think it's misconstrued as bias is really the experience. If you start off, and you're not really getting the same access, because some naive person isn't inviting you to lunch, because you didn't seem like the kind of person they would normally eat lunch with, or whatever it is, those really little unconscious, really not intentional things that happen early can have a huge impact. So the person's going through this whole journey in their career without any of that inside information. And then later, Oh, get accused of, you know, bias in the senior executive level, we know whatever, but the mistakes and the problems had happened like we earlier, you know, so I feel like we have to really understand the business patterns that exist in different levels in organizations. And I think because companies don't tend to like to invest in a high turnover population, like your first level supervisor, you really miss a huge opportunity to get it right from the beginning and you spent all this money bringing in all these diverse individuals that you're just churning out the door cuz you're not Can I put up with the supervisor who doesn't really invite them? You know, out with everybody or whatever that? You know?
Joerg Schmitz 35:05
Absolutely. I mean, I think there's a whole field to explore that. And we reduce sometimes things to bias with that accusatory tone. And that doesn't help.
Wendy Hirschberg 35:17
I mean, my work with that first level supervisor, and people were very open, they're like, never thought about that you're so right. Like, it wasn't like, Oh, You're offending me, you're calling me, you know, racist, or whatever it was, you know, it was really, it's like, that attitude of being a teacher, I think, really goes a long way. Yeah, it's like you, you do have to assume that people want to learn something in these efforts they're making, you know, and I just think we do get a lot of things wrong in the field, unfortunately, you know, because I think it's a passion, you know, to understand, like, the intellectual process involved, or the intellectual analysis, without seeing, like, really the down and dirty what's really going on? You know, that's, that's just where I think, you know, I landed, and it's, and, you know, so far, I'm still working
Joerg Schmitz 36:11
on it. There's plenty of work to do in this field, of course, and plenty of innovation to give, you know, which is why, you know, I know we're almost out of time, but I'm, I'm I end usually these conversations with a simple question from all your experience, and maybe unfair, given the two sides and, you know, but from all your experiences, what what are, what are one or two actionable insights that you feel can benefit whoever is listening, whether they are in the field of the AI, or inclusive leadership, or an artist,
Wendy Hirschberg 36:47
you know, really pay attention, you know, listen and pay attention. And actually, the things that I've learned about, you know, how much you bring your own framing, to every interaction, it's sort of an astounding reality. We are seeing things through a such a specific lens, and I have to say, your, my work with you, as helped me so much in that regard that I mean, beginning, honestly, you know, in seeing, just like how incredibly American I've would feel when I would go in some, you know, international meeting, and I'd be like, Oh, my God, like, every word out of my mouth is all about, like how an American feels about themselves as an individual. And it's like, seeing being very honestly, self reflective, your you know, your own lands is a huge piece of what is required, and then just listening across that difference with his, you know, minimizing that judgment, minimizing, you know, your own projection of what you would be in that situation, you know, it's really removing yourself to some extent, as much as you can, you know, those are things I learned. I mean, obviously, I'm obsessed with paying attention to the business patterns, and, you know, really not accepting what is handed off in a piece of paper about, you know, the, the, for example, the hierarchy, you know, there's lots of influencers, throughout organizations at all levels, and you have to find those people. If you're going to make a change. It's really,
Joerg Schmitz 38:20
I mean, it's really about reflecting deeper pay attention to the deeper layers in the surface for for what it is. Yeah. Thank you.
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